>> this is one person saying this. it is senator joseph lieberman. >> it is significant. he is chairman of the home and security committee. -- the homeland security committee. one of his legacies is security and terrorism. >> there is an independent review from the state department. he though would like an inspector general to step in. >> he did say he and senator collins asked the general to do independent review. -- the general inspector to

do an independent review. he said they would probably want to wait to not overtake the ongoing investigation by the state department. he would like to see it happen now. >> do you think that congress will do their own investigation? what happens next? >> i do not know that congress will do its own investigation. >> as we sit here, congress is wrapping up their session. they're going on a five week recess and then they come back. there were the protests in egypt. we did not talk about that. there is 1 billion in debt relief up in the air. what is happening? >> there are questions whether that the administration is going to offer egypt debt relief and whether the government is going to begin to suspend aid to the u.s. government. there has been a push to do this. i've got one of the interesting things that senator lieberman says was he talked about intervention in the middle east. he thought it would be popular.

i think this is a major policy issue. >> we are out of time. thank you very much. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> tonight on c-span, we're showing a senate race. courtesy of kmiz tonight at 9:20 p.m. eastern here on c-span. ms. cheney and laura romney, daughter-in-law of mitt romney, campaigned in lone tree, colorado thursday. following the remarks, mr. cheney takes questions from the

audience. this is moderated by jean norton could it is about 40 minutes. >> laurie romney is married to matt, one of five sons of mitt romney. she graduated with a bachelor of arts in organizational communication in 1964. she is a member of the chi omega sorority, university of iowa chapter. she studied abroad in a jerusalem program during the summer of 1992, which i thought was fascinating. she served on a service mission for her church in los angeles from 1994-1996. she married matt in december of

1996 in salt lake city. she worked in advertising for boston agencies before becoming a mother. she has four children. she has lived in boston and seattle since being married. currently they are living in san diego, california. she enjoys photography, reading, exercising, and cooking in her free time. please help me welcome laurie romney. [applause] >> i actually graduated from college in 1994, just in case you are wondering why i look so young. [laughter] thank you for the introduction.

it was really nice. i'm laurie romney, and i am married to mitt romney's second son, matt. i am grateful that you are here. thank you for coming. this really is an important cause. that is why we are all here. the reason i am excited to be here -- i am not a professional speaker, so please excuse me if i am not as articulate as some -- but i feel that i have personal insight and stories to share about mitt that can help you develop a real feeling for how much he cares about women and how confident he is and how hard he will work for you. that is what i want to share with your today.

i know that the unemployment rate has gone up in the colorado recently. i know that you have the same concerns regarding the economy and your family, as the rest of the nation. i also share your concerns. my dad is worried about his veterinarian business that he started in colorado where he went to veterinarian school. my mom was laid off from her job at delta, but has luckily been re-hired. the worry is a great weight on their shoulders, and on mine worrying about them. a worry for everyone else, as well. my kids are in the public school system.

we are facing budget cuts and all sorts of possibilities -- not as good public education as they could be having. i worry about health care and consumer choice. i know you have these concerns as well. mitt's experience in politics and experience makes him the perfect candidate to help our economy grow, but you already know that. what i want to share with you is a little bit more about him. i have been able to get to know him over the past 16 years. i have been married for 16 years. he is really amazing. he and ann welcomed me with open arms into their family when i was first married.

they have supported matt and i every step of the way of our marriage. i appreciate that. the first thing i noticed about mitt was how dedicated he is to ann. -- was his devotion to ann. he values her counsel and advice more than that of anyone else by far. the second thing i noticed over the years is his extreme frugality. [laughter] [applause] it's true. and also his work ethic. he is probably the most frugal

person i have ever met, maybe besides my husband, who was raised by him. [laughter] when we are together, he is always on alert on how the energy in the home is being used. [laughter] my husband does this as well. if you are doing the dishes and then turn away to do something else, he will come and turn off the water. which is kind of annoying. [laughter] it is how they are. they cannot help it. mitt is constantly watching the air conditioning. it is turned off unless it is absolutely essential. another thing that is kind of funny that he does is that a lot of the times he consolidates

the garbage because the waste management company in is area charges by the bag. [laughter] he makes sure not to have many bags. watching his father eat an entire batch of homemade ice cream that was actually sweetened with salt so that it would not go to waste had a huge impact on mitt. waste is not tolerated. i think his sons could write a very funny book about it. he also worked harder than anyone i know. he has more energy and stamina than i do by far. he is appropriately named "the energizer bunny." i will never forget visiting him when he had just taken on the role of being head of the

winter olympics. he was barely eating or sleeping because he had taken on such a great weight. he was stressed out and worried about it. he was working himself to the bone. he was very concerned about turning it around and making it a success, which he did, but it took a lot out of him. he also loves manual labor. he is not afraid to get down and dirty. he works hard all of the time. any time he has an opportunity, he digs in and works hard. third and probably the most relevant thing i have heard is that mitt fixes things. he is gifted at finding a solution and taking action to

fix the problem or improve a situation. i have never seen a more natural born leader. i am not saying that because i am his daughter-in-law. he was born to lead. he manifests this in every situation he is in, no matter how small. one example i will share with you is when i was expecting my twins. i started labor at 28 weeks. i was put on strict bed rest by my doctor. mitt and ann came to visit me that first night. i was in a bare room, lying in bed.they were worried about what would happen. he immediately took over the situation. first, he went downstairs and

brought our tv up the stairs. he built a tv stand and set it up in my room. he connected the cables and got everything working. he called his best friend and asked if his daughter could come and help me with errands and things i have not yet finished. in a matter of minutes, he greatly improved my situation and left me feeling relieved and hopeful. this is one small example. he did not even think of it.

that is the way he operates. in every situation, i could tell you 1,000 stories. it is the way that he thinks. he is very good at it. mitt truly cares deeply for women. you do not need to look any further than his family to see the love and respect and commitment that he has toward women. i have felt it deeply. my life has been blessed by him. my husband cares for me in the same way that mitt cares for ann. all of our lives can be blessed by him if he becomes the next president. i thank you again for your time and appreciate all of your support. [applause]

>> that was an incredible glimpse into who we all want to help elect to be the next president of the united states. he loves his family. he is committed to his family. he is frugal. he is hands-on. he is a problem solver. he does not wait for someone else to solve the problem, but jumps in. isn't that who we need in the white house, ladies? [applause] i am very excited to introduce our next speaker. liz cheney has been a woman who

has been a role model for me. she is an incredibly accomplished woman in foreign relations. she is someone who has known and worked with mitt romney. i want to tell you a little bit about her. she was an attorney and specialist in u.s.-middle east policies. she is a founder and chairman of keep america safe, a non- profit organization dedicated to education and advocacy about american national security policy. as a fox news contributor, she provided analysis on on u.s. national security policy in the 2012 election. she was the second ranking state department official responsible for u.s. policy in the middle east. prior to that, she served as deputy assistant secretary of state from 2002-2004.

i hope i got the dates right. [laughter] she is responsible for the establishment of the $300 million middle east partnership initiative to support educational reform and the empowerment of women. from 1999-2002, she served on assignment with the international corporation, a member of the world bank group. she served previously at the department of state and at the agency for international development, designing and managing u.s. assistance projects in eastern europe. she received her bachelor's

degree in colorado. don't you love that all of them have colorado connections? [applause] she was married to philip perry and they have five children. please welcome liz cheney. [applause] >> thank you.

>> thank you. thank you very much. it is such an honor to be here, and such an honor to be here in the presence of such wonderful, strong women. i was sitting here listening to donna and laurie talk about mitt romney. it just struck me the difference of the kind of human being who does everything he can in any circumstance to make things better and the man who currently in have is the oval office, who seems to take every turn to avoid the crisis and find someone to blame. we have all seen what happens after four years of that kind of leadership. you know, i think as a mother of five, three of them daughters, as someone who comes from a long line of strong women, and i know that most of you know my mother -- my great- great grandmothers, i am sure that some of you in this room have a similar story. lots of us in colorado share a similar family history. my great-grandmothers came here on the oregon trail. -- came here on the mormon

trail. my great-grandmother raised four kids in a ragtop house in casper, wyoming. if you think they sound tough, you should have met my grandmother who was the first deputy sheriff in a town in wyoming. [applause] so, i do feel like i have some authority to talk about women and what we care about and what this election means to as. when i think about the women in my family and the dreams they have and the kind of world they wanted their daughters and granddaughters to live in, and i thought of them when i watched the democratic convention. and the democratic convention and the obama administration and the democratic pitch to women this time around seems to be focused entirely around the a guarantee that the government will pay for everyone's contraception.

as i watched the convention and thought about my grandmother and my great-grandmother's and the dreams they had, i wondered, is it really the case that that is the limit of the dream that those speakers have for their daughters and granddaughters? [applause] and don't you all think we should aim may be just a little bit higher than that? [applause] now, if you happen to be a stay at home,, this administration also has a message for you. i am sure that many of you heard this. one of the president felt he -- one of the president's key operatives said that ann

romney in particular had never worked a day in her life. yes. because she was stay at home. if you think about every stay at home on that you know, first of all, i am 100% confident, you pick any stay at home mom and she will know more on her little finger about how to balance the budget, about how not to live beyond her means than the entire obama administration combined. [applause] and it occurs to me that we have won it very clear and easy solution to follow the grave challenges we face as a nation and that is on november 6, let's make sure we make barack obama a stay at home dad. [applause] and it will not, a day to send. -- a day too soon. [laughter]

you all know, you have heard jane talk about in particular the challenges we face here at home. i know the president did not use this word. i am pretty sure mrs. obama did not use this word. "record." because they do not want to talk about president obama's record. the only thing they can do is criticize governor romney, tell you things that are not true about governor romney, tell you things that are not true about republicans, try to scare people. because his record is abysmal. if it is possible, i will tell you that his record on national security is even worse than what we have seen him do here at home. you know the numbers here at home. 50% of college graduates are either unemployed or underemployed. we see unemployment among women above 8% across the board. unemployment among all americans above 8%.

$16 trillion debt. did you all see the president say the other night "that's not the short term." i think it is $50 billion a day in debt. that is not in the short term? and when we think about what is happening overseas, i know you turn on the tv every day. when this president came into office, i believe -- and i think you can go back and look at his words and see -- he was dedicated to the notion that he had to bring america down a notch. he did not believe america should be ascended. -- should be ascendant. he went to the united nations and said any world order that elevates one nation above the others cannot survive. that is not only on odd to believe that, but it is completely anti to everything we know from history. what we know as republicans, and frankly what most democratic presidents have also known, is the world is a safer

place when america leads. the world as a safer place when america is strong. [applause] and governor romney has made it absolutely clear that he will never apologize for the great united states of america. governor romney was right last week when he out after the embassies were attacked in cairo. [applause] and condemned the statement that our embassy released. we have extremists coming over the walls of our embassy, and they are burning our walls and the department of state apologizes for people who have hurt the religious feelings of muslims. governor romney added exactly right. -- governor romney had it

exactly right. and he had it right the next day, too. [applause] although the administration's response to the crisis of the last 10 days or so has been appalling, anyone watching could not have been surprised. this president has made it clear he wants to bring america back, he wants to put us in retrieve. he has also failed to stand with our most important ally the state of israel. -- most important ally, the state of israel. governor romney has said he will stand shoulder to shoulder with israel and he will ensure through whatever means is necessary that iran, the world's leading sponsor of terror, is never allowed to obtain nuclear capability. [applause] so, when you are talking to

friends of yours, whether they are men or women, but especially women because it is us who will decide this election. not me, but you guys who will decide this election in colorado. please talk to them about what governor romney is going to do for this nation. talk to them about the extent to which he understands it is through economic growth and opportunity that everybody in this nation gets a fair shot. and for an economy that is not hindered by the massive taxes of obamacare, an economy that is not hindered by the total unpredictability of the mass of regulations and more are coming, governor romney knows the private sector is the engine of growth in this country. and he knows our greatest days are when we remember that. we kept taxes low. we kept government small. we had strong national defense.

when i talk to people in my home state of wyoming about what they can do in this election cycle, i say count on colorado. -- i say call your friends in colorado. i have got to tell you guys -- our record is better than yours. we are always in the red column. with your help, we can put colorado in governor romney's column this november, and it is so important. and i want to leave you with just one more thought, and that is, you have seen things get nasty. i know what it feels like, laurie, when you see someone you love attacked, when you see lies told about you. they are trying to make it so bad and so awful, first of all that they win, and second of all that we stop fighting. we have to send them a mission -- we have to send a message. we will not sit down and shut up.

[applause] we need to take a lesson from what we did in wisconsin, which is one we combined organization, -- which is when we combine organization, hard work, and the right message -- and we have but all three this time around -- we can and we will prevail. [applause] so, i want to thank you all for everything you've already done, and i want to tell you it is not nearly as much as you are going to have to work this next 46 days or what ever we have got left. it is going to be a fight. we will have to fight harder and longer and stronger. if we do, we will be able to save this nation that we love so much. thank you for being here. thank you for all your hard work. [applause]

>> thank you for coming. we are going to have two or three questions from the audience for our special guests, so if anybody has any questions, they can give you the might -- the mic, and we will do just a couple. >> thank you. this is for any of you guys. one of my bigger concerns, to be honest, is how this country >> thank you. this is for any of you guys. one of my bigger concerns, to be honest, is how this country is going to get reunited. you hear nancy pelosi, she comes off and just shames the republicans, and i think they have lost track that literally a half the country is one party and tapas the other. how do we get the group together, get the country back together to be united in our focus goals without giving up on our ethics and things like that? [laughter]

>> it is a really important question. you know, one of the things that has been so heartbreaking about this administration has been how divisive and it has been. and when you think about governor romney's message across the board, how important it is to restore the private sector, how important it is to give americans opportunity, he understands that it job is the best way out of poverty. a job is the best way for the economy to grow. the obama team has very -- you know, you can watch it. you can see how calculating they are about this message for this group, this message for this group, how are we going to divide people? i think the american people see through that and i think they get very sick and tired. republicans are not always nice either to democrats. it goes both ways. i happen to think the democrats are worse.

the challenges our next president are going to face are so huge, and i think about the fact that, you know, as i said before, president obama's first instinct is always to say, hey, it is not my fault. when, we hope, but governor romney is elected, it will be easy for him to look back at the disaster president obama has created, but that is not the kind of man he is. he will bring the country together. he did it in massachusetts. he knows that we are all americans and if we want to deal with the huge debt crisis, if we want to deal with the very dangerous situation president obama has created overseas, -- i think the first answer is governor romney. then i think the people you like to congress, the people you talk to elect to the senate. make sure that they know that

they are working for you. you are not pressing them, -- you're not paying them, frankly to go to washington, and not give anything done. hopefully we will be unified again after november. [applause] >> i kind of was hoping to hear more about your expertise in the middle east, and especially it seems like there have been a lot more conversations lately about what is going on in the middle east and i was like to hear your point about how that can next to our nation and what we're in right now. >> yes. >> yes, i think we are all watching very, very troubled by what has happened. it seems to be the first thing you can say is while we applaud

president obama for killing osama bin laden -- ordering the operation to kill osama bin laden -- while the has been very worried -- very busy spiking football's about that, they seem to have missed the fact that al-qaeda is resurgent in north africa and in the gulf. and killing the bin laden, although we applauded and welcome it, was not the end of the war. unfortunately, i think we will be at war for a long time and i think it is the kind of war we need intelligence, in particular, to win. the kind of enemy we are now facing we have never faced before as a nation. it is an enemy that operates their networks, that requires intelligence. i think it is really shameful that we do not have any way right now -- non-. you all know the president stopped the enhanced interrogation program. then he revealed the techniques

to the enemy. then he said he put another program in its place, but he never did it. there is no program. although we are killing a lot of terrorists with drones and that is good, if you read jose rodriguez's book, for example, who oversaw the operation through the cia during a lot of the post-9/11 era, he said every time you incinerate a terrorist you lose the ability to figure out what was on his laptop, what was in his pocket, who did you talk to? our intelligence is getting dated every day because so much came out of that program and programs during the bush should ministration. so, the first thing we have got to do, i believe, is have a program to interrogate terrorist. the second thing is make it absolutely clear we are the united states of america.

we are going to stand with our allies and our enemies better fear us. that is simply necessary. [applause] we are the greatest force for good the world has ever known, and the men and women who wear are uniform are not only the best fighting force the world has ever known, but they are also part of the greatest force for good the world has ever known. we liberate people. and when we do what this president has done, when we fail to stand up with israel, when we send a signal to radicals and extremist -- you know president obama went into the rose garden 24 hours after the embassy was attacked in cairo and he condemned the murder of our ambassador, obviously rightly. he did not say a word about the attack in cairo. immediately the message goes

out, you attacked an american embassy, the president is not going to condemn a. we cannot live in a world like that. you cannot live in a world where america is not leading. i think we need to look hard at the relationship with egypt. the president got tripped up over whether they are still our ally. do right answer is, -- the right answer is -- the muslim brotherhood government allowed our embassy to be attacked, looks the other ways and fails to condemn it for least 24 hours -- that is not the action of an allied. we now have $1 billion in loanst is supporting our enemies? [applause] so, we need to take a big step forward and say, all right,

look. america is back and you can count on us. we're going to make sure that the iranians do not get a nuclear weapon. we know who the enemy is. we are going to fight the enemy, and we are going to stand up with those moderates across the arab world. i do not know if you noticed, secretary clinton went to cairo. american officials often it greeted with protest overseas. that is not unusual. what was unusual is the people protesting her said that there were protesting because americans were supporting the muslim brotherhood. they really believe that we are behind the muslim brotherhood. i have heard that our ambassador in cairo will not meet with any opposition leaders in egypt. not only are we not standing with our allies, not only are our enemies not fearing us, but those people we should be supporting or not in power

believe we have walked away from them, we have made ourselves irrelevant. is a very tough situation. it will be very hard if we have to live through another four years of this president's policies and that is why it is so important to make sure we elect governor romney in november. one final question. >> go to this side now. >> liz, i have a couple of points. first, when are we going to hear liz cheney for president? [applause] i am a big fan. back to the point of the middle east, recently i have been wondering why it obama's poll numbers remain as high as they do. i am in total disbelief. i watched very closely what is going on in the media. seeing that you are a middle

eastern experts and with the media as well, i can pull up yahoo news, all kinds of different news, and there is no mention that the pakastani embassy is on fire, that americans are being attacked all over the arab nations, and appointment numbers came out today. they are terrible. the deaths increased on and on and on. what they are reporting on is mitt romney's hair does not look good or some asinine story. what can we do as citizens to stop this crap? this is insane. i'm sorry. it is insane. [applause] >> well, you are exactly right. i think -- and i am not saying this just because i work for

fox. i do work for fox. watch fox. [applause] i think the internet is a hugely important tool. the mainstream media, they are absolutely desperate, desperate to try to make sure barack obama is reelected. you cannot even make this stuff up. because they are ignorant. no. chris matthews saying the president gives him a tingle up his leg. i mean, you know. look, i think it is incumbent on all of us to be really well informed as an electorate. because of social media, because of conservative talk radio, because of fox, because of the internet, there are tremendous outlets of information.

the wall street journal is also a terrific paper. you can get and formed and it is not as easy as it used to be for the media -- you can get informed and it is not as easy as it used to be for the media to turn an election. i think the american people understand what is going on. when you see that there is only one channel showing the crowd outside the embassy in islamabad, there is clearly going -- there's clearly something gone along. educating your neighbors, taking advantage of all the outlets out there, and not getting discouraged. when you think about what the obama campaign did to governor romney of the last couple of months, hundreds of millions of dollars of untruthful negative ads trying to run down his support at the polls, trying to paint him as something he is not, and all the obama campaign has managed to do is tread water, it tells you the american people are not buying it.

they know what it feels like out here. they know how tough it is. just work hard and get the message out. thank you. >> tomorrow, mexican president felipe calderon will talk about u.s.-mexico relations. his term as president ends in december. when the president-elect will replace him. our live coverage of the mexican president begins monday morning at 9 eastern on c-span2. >> former virginia governor tim kaine and former senator george allen faced each other thursday night in one of four scheduled senate debates. the cook political report rates this race a tossup. >> the standard bearer said 47% of americans are too dependent

on government, that they see themselves as victims. do you share that vision of america, and what specifically would you do to deal with that 47%? >> as i stated in the beginning, david, the best social problem all is a job. highview provide job our attendees for people -- >> the thing half the country sees themselves as victims? >> we do disagree with governor romney on this point? >> i have my own point of view. my point of view is that the people of america still believe in the american dream. our responsibility as leaders and public servants is to make sure that this is a country where everyone has that equal opportunity to compete and succeed and pursue their dreams. the way i look at it, and i will expand on that later in the debate, i suppose, but i think if you look at the records, who has created more opportunities?

the mention welfare reform. those are people who were down and out, who needed temporary help. we want to help them. even people who are disabled want to work. that is one of the great attributes and characteristics of all americans. the delegates themselves as victims. the won a government that reflects their values and gives them the opportunity to reach their aspirations and the that role model for their children. >> let's take a moment for rebuttal. >> i don't think the question is whether you agree or disagree with governor romney statements. it is very straightforward. they were divisive comments. >> moderated by david gregory, this debate -- was the entire debate monday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. host: joining us is the center

for data analysis at the heritage foundation and co- author of the 2012 index of dependence on government. he is here to talk to us about the index and what measures, the dependence on government programs for housing, food, income, student aid, and other assistance. >> tell us a little bit more about this index. we sort of talk on what it measures, but give us a feel for what we can find in here. >> we are all dependent on somebody. at some time and our live, you and i were probably both babies. we had complete dependence on our mothers. as we get older, we are ultimately dependent on people who love us and care for this. dependency is nothing unusual. it is normal. there are times when we lose a

job, you have trouble, the neighbors or church members help out. what we wanted to do in this index, and we started this some time ago, is to take a look at the degree to which the federal government is now providing the aid which used to be provided by your families, churches, local communities, local government. to the degree and which is increasing, " we are trying to do is get our arms around the growth of the population, the growth of the programs, the growth of the commitment to help people. what we did is we chose about 47 programs that we think are deeply connected to the quality of a person's life. food, shelter, income assistance, which is increasingly important both for your older age and your working

age. health care, the government is taking on more and more of a role in health care, and in higher education. they are 58 or 47 are almost completely identical, except that they chose to look at veterans' benefits. those are the three programs that make the difference. last year, the new york times inheritance published within a week of each other, the growth of programs that provide aid to people for the absolutely essential things of life or increasing remarkably. that is why i am here today. we are growing increasingly concerned about the rate of fraud in these programs. there are 47 programs and they alone account for 72% of all federal spending. when congress gets around to looking at the budget when they

come back from the elections, they are going to have to make some changes in some of these programs. people need to become aware that there is change coming. i am not here today to say where the programs are part of that, just to say that the rate of growth has been dramatic. host: we will show some of the numbers and get you to explain a little bit about the numbers. the first is regarding the 2013 index of dependence on government. government dependency increased in 2011 by 3.28%, the largest increases in higher education loans and grants and retirement spending, and almost 49% of the u.s. population does not pay any federal income taxes. that has been the source of a lot of discussion. first, about the first number, that government dependency has

increased by about 3.25% in 2011. >> actually, that is good ws. it has been increasing largely because of the great economic problems we have been through. also, increasingly, the return of those people in my generation. the increases have been dramatic recently. one statistic you did not mention, and that is just in the last four years, the index has gone up by 31%. the index was equal to 1001980, and now it is closing in on 240. it is a remarkable increase during that time, almost two and a half fold increase in the index. >> i believe that in greece's you are talking about are illustrated in this graph we have come a dependence on

government higher than ever. you mentioned the index of 100 back in 1980 and then the increase in 2011, up to 332. >> exactly. as you can see from that graph, you can see there are spots during that time and periods of not so great increase. what is interesting is the end of -- the index increased least during the 1980's and during the administration of william jefferson clinton. the clinton and reagan years are almost tied in terms of the flatness of their growth. we have had dramatic increases since the clinton administration. george w. bush expanded the programs that are in the index, for example medicare expanded

significantly. because of the recession and because of public policy choices there were not directly connected to the recession, you have seen since barack obama was elected congress further expanding these programs. >> we are talking with the director of the center for data analysis at the heritage foundation. the topic of our discussion for the next half-hour is the 2012 index of dependence on government. if you want to get involved, send us a message but social media. our first call comes from tennessee, paul on the republican line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have a comment and question

also. i would like you to give me a chance. this -- my comment is, the president has come in and done exactly what you pointed to. they cannot see what is going on in our country here today. nothing has gotten any better. our men and women around or are fighting for our freedoms. the health-care system, forcing us to buy it, what are they fighting for? when this president goes around the country, goes around the world and gets on his bended knee and beg for forgiveness for 9/11 and hires a record in the world to be in his cabinet, what are we expecting? host: did you have a question? caller: yes, i do.

we have a dependency on these programs. this man has taken so much money right out of medicare to pay for his obamacare. guest: there are about one out of five americans involved in the index. they are significantly dependent in these programs. one out of five americans is a lot. we are very well the country. so far we have been able to afford all of that, but as i mentioned earlier, these programs are the principal drivers of federal spending. about seven out of every $10 spent by the federal government comes with these programs. paul mentioned health care and on what to focus on that specifically. that is a big part of this index and a big part of the problem.

host: according to research, 13% of people are dependent in the areas of health care and welfare, and 13% in housing. >> there is a larger number of people in retirement, but the rate of growth of retirement spending is fairly constant. retirement, and that includes social security and medicare and if you are indigent and elderly, that includes medicare. those programs are seriously broken. i am sure you have had many guest on this program talk to you about the future of social security and medicare. here in the index that play a role of spending increase, because the retired population goes up and the cost of medicaid goes up little faster than the growth of the population. in a few years, this index is going to rocket.

there are millions of baby boomers coming into retirement. these programs are going to have to change. what we want to do is alert people to another dimension. reform has to happen in these programs. if you think there are valuable and people need to have them, and i am not disputing them one bit, these programs have got to be reformed broadway. they are simply on an unsustainable financial path. so many millions of americans did not save for their retirement, don't have medical insurance -- insurance and they are going into retirement, so they will be totally dependent on these programs and they are financially shot. host: our next call is from randy in st. louis. caller: this guy was part of this article that was written sometime back.

talking about microwave ovens and refrigerators, th they were not poor. the heritage foundation talks about dependency on government, and in turn, dependency on government should apply to every human being in everybody. how about the oil industry? they are dependent on the government. >> we are going to leave it there. guest: there are two points that randy made. he is referring to another heritage analyst who has looked at the livestock people are getting public assistance and has found many people in that group more very needy and getting public assistance, correctly. he has also found many people in that same group who have to cousy's, have three or four color televisions, have unusual circumstances that look like a

suspicious application of public policy, and he draws attention to that fact. anyone who is interested in that can go to the article on our web page and look up that interesting work. the other point was really interesting. we should be applying the expense index to everybody. i think there is a good argument for that. it is not what we wanted to do here in this index because we are only looking at the dependents of people on government for the essentials of life. i think "newsweek or time magazine recently ran an article on subsidy america and said that all the things the federal government is providing, none of us gets off the hook. the number of people in the

united states to get something significant from the government of the cash nature or in kind- nature, and that is 128 million americans, one out of three. these numbers are directly from the census bureau. we go through them very carefully and make sure we are not double counting anybody. it seems to me a very large number, and if we are worried about the government's spending, that is a number that should alert the kind of people about that. host: packard from four lauderdale, florida. go ahead. caller: i did not see him talking about corporate welfare. why does he not talk about all the bankers that get fdic

insurance but they have a pan out -- in house we ochses. they don't have their offices in the basement of their homes or take the subway to work. host: corporate welfare is a serious topic and an issue that congress needs to take up as they take all these other issues. we cannot afford social welfare anymore than we can afford some of these programs i have been talking about without reforming them. these are deductions and exemptions to the tax code. a lot of them come because we have a broken tax system. i think the answer there is tax reform.

president obama has proposed lowering the corporate tax rate in exchange for getting rid of many, not all, but many of the exemptions to deductions and credits. another place they come in is through the subsidies for particular kinds of products. take for example the subsidies which used to come in cash form but now in the form of a mandate for people who grow corn. and this is the big corporate farmers is what you're concerned about, patrick, well, i think that's something we should look at, too. certainly we want cleaner air. maybe there's a better way of getting the gasoline mixed with these kinds of products which do produce that. but again, it comes at a cost, which you call corporate welfare. i don't disagree with that at all. i strongly endorse your concern and i think congress should take it up but unfortunately congress doesn't. congress is constantly at the being and call of our k street lawyers in washington, many of whom represent corporations because after all, corporations are fairly heavily taxed. a lower tax rate would definitely help that. mr. obama and many republicans have endorsed that in correcting the corporate welfare problem you put your finger on. host: we've got a tweet from decembery grace who writes dependence on government is a concern for the tax dodging gop

base. please remind viewers that red states are the most dependent. guest: that's a good point. there's more concentration of people in need, in the metropolitan areas, and to the extent that those metropolitan areas are in republican states, then he's certainly right about that. but again, most of the people who get this government assistance, like getting anything, rob, live in the major metropolitan areas, and some of those, well, i think new york city, new york state s. a very blue state and california, my goodness sakes, i was just there in los angeles and san diego and i must tell you, california is in as bad shape as we all hear it is and i hope that those in california listening to the program today will take it upon themselves to get to work on that state. what a great place and it's a

shame to see it in the financial shape it's in host: back to the phones, melvin on the line for republicans, you're on the phone with william beach of the heritage foundation. go ahead. caller: good morning gentlemen and thank you for bringing this problem to our attention. i agree with you, it's a terrible problem, dependency in this country. thank you very much. my question to you, sir, have you ever considered why this is really happening? is it because of our politicians? but isn't it related somehow to changing our economic system? it's become winner take all and the 99 percent versus the 1 percent. it's so difficult for a person to make a living today.

have you ever factored in the coloration between this change in our system with your statistics? guest: thank you melvin, that's a great question and yes, we've thought about that. i think there are two things that stand behind the growth in the index. first is one that you didn't mention but i think it's really the most important, and that as we have turned to the federal government for providing the aid that is essential for a good life, again, food, shelter, education, income support, those kinds of things, we have taken that responsibility out of our communities and the organizations that used to supply these aid programs are churches, our neighbors, local governments and many, many, many community organizations, from fraternal societies to mutual aid societies, no longer are there. so one of the reasons the index is growing is because the civil society is shrinking, and i'm a great advocate, as many people are, of reviving the civil society, regardless of wherever you are, of getting organizations like the catholic charities to nasa, to all the other aid organizations, back to work and really for them to shoulder responsibility. the second reason why the index

has grown is because of the reason you mentioned, and that is the economy. it changes increasingly. we are a knowledge-based economy, in which the kind of education you have, of a technical or intellectual nature, is really important to the job and the income that you receive. many americans have fallen outside of our educational system or gotten a poor education, and so their skill set is not adequate for the economy that we're living in. that's a real problem. and you see, you know, the inability to compete in the economy coming back to problems in the family. i'm very disturbed, as i'm sure you are, that we're seeing marriage decrease in the lower income portions of the income spectrum. when fewer and fewer people marry and then still have children, we begin to have problems of an inter generational nature as these children have greater conflicts

with the criminal justice system and have educational problems themselves. many reasons why the index has grown and grown so dramatically, i think, following the decline of the civil society. it is very important. and the economy is important. and as i just mentioned, derivative from the economy is the increasing failure of family life and family structure in the united states. host: breaker who writes under the handle cast iron straw sends us a tweet and says now he, meaning you, he's using code metropolitan in quotations means black neighborhoods. guest: well, i don't think it does. but excuse me if that is a code word. most of the problem, because of the racial composition of this country, is in the so-called white community. the black community has serious problems. we all know that. but in terms of the dependency

index, they are about proportional to their population concentration. so we have the european derived or caucasian community, the dominant one, latinos, people of spanish speaking origin, blacks. the asians are in here as well, though they are the smallest percentage. that's just a good guess. i honestly don't do a racial analysis of the dependency index. it would be interesting to do, but i don't think -- we're all americans, after all. we ought to approach the problem -- but if i used the code word, i guess i'm guilty but i'll try not to do it. host: back to the phones, with me in new york, sidney on the line for the democrats, thank you for waiting. caller: thank you. and just as the last caller's response, he cut on three points, which all are poisonous responses to which i'd just like to respond.

firstly, the blacks versus the whites. seven times as many people that are black are sent to prisoner for smoking marijuana, although the user rate is about the same. secondly he talks about the breakdown in civil society. i'm a cpa. i do tax returns for multi millionaires who ask me how much am i allowed to deduct on charity, and i tell them you'll have to deduct what you gave. well, put me down for $2000. so civil society is broken down because people don'thave money in their pockets. not because the government is taking up too much of a responsibility. and the left one was yet -- there is a knowledge difference, okay? jack welch figured out, a very smart guy, figured out if you send jobs to china and you don't have to have people in america making a decent wage doing the same kind of work, as a result, we don't have jobs.

we used to have a recession and you'd drop buying underwear because you didn't have money and you found a job and start buying underwear. now the underwear comes from china, jeans come from china, sneakers come from chine use and i dare say even this guy's brain might be outsourced because he offers no solutions whatsoever. host: we'll leave it there. guest: you raise good points on criminal justice and the higher percentage of blacks than whites in the prison system. i'll leave that to my colleagues who are experts in that issue area. you're probably right, and we should address that question. the civil society is broken for a lot of reasons, one of which you mentioned, which is the financial problems and not getting enough deductions or so forth or contributions from people who have the money.

but if you simply look at the number of organizations that used to be there all across the political spectrum, the religious and racial spectrum, as a percent of all the organizations, the civil organizations are way, way, way down. they began to decrease in the 1960s, you can read robert putnam's famous book, "bowling alone" to look at the decline of the civil society and the eight organizations. it's more than financial, though. you have put your finger on one of the problems. with respect to underwear in china and ul of that -- and all of that, which is an interesting topic, sidney, we live in a world in which globalization is the firm reality of economic life and we're more and more going to find things we used to do being done by people who demand a lower wage but are in developing countries, where that wage is

probably a very high wage relative to other wages. in the united states -- and the united states economy is moving more and more to a knowledge- based economy. i don't know whether we need as many workers in that economy as we currently have available to us. that may be something we'll have to talk about. but it is the case that everyone who goes through our educational system now needs to be as trained as much as they're capable in doing knowledge-based work. and to the extent that they're not trained that way, they're going to fall behind and we're going to have them on the rolls of the dependency index at some future publication of that product. host: we've got a tweet from gary who i think addresses a little bit more of that. he writes until we restore manufacturing jobs in america, there will be a permanent underclass in america, must place tariffs or foreign goods. are you suggesting that we, that the united states, has sort of

grown out of being a manufacturing state and that unless we can somehow harness the knowledge base, as a knowledge class or whatever, as a tax base, that we're going to have a permanent group of folks who will always be dependent on government? >> i think we can manufacture products better than most countries can. except that we're just not going to manufacture some of the products we used to in the past. years and years ago, i was in missouri. i worked for state government. then when i started my life as an economist, i joined the administration of the governor, the first week i was on the job, the brown shoe company in news, the -- in st. louis, the last company in the united states that made shoes, closed its offices, in the dark of night, moved its equipment on to trains and reopened offices somewhere, in brazil, months later. five thousand people lost their

jobs. that was in st. louis. a few months later the television company in the united states, zenith, closed its offices, moved to mexico, and those offices were in springfield, missouri. okay, we don't manufacture televisions or shoes in the united states anymore. those are done in lower wage countries. but we can manufacture high technology for the equipment, manufacturing businesses are coming back to the united states as are energy -- as our energy costs are falling because of increased production, but they're very specialized manufacturing operations. does that mean that the person with the training to make shoes is going to find a job now in that manufacturing sector? no. they're going to also have to have specific new technical training. it doesn't always mean they're going to have to learn how to do calculus and speak french, but they're going to have to have better and more acute training than they used to have to be in

the manufacturing sector. our manufacturing sector is high technology, it is in capital goods, it is in the kinds of things that we can do because of our scientific and technical knowledge. so i reaffirm my point. i think manufacturing will grow in this country, but it willer of a different kind and it will be, quote unquote, for lack of time, we can't get into it, but quote unquote, knowledge-based. >> host: we're talking about william beach of the heritage center, a visiting fellow of the university of buckingham in great britain and is here to talk to us about the heritage foundation's report, dependency on government. you can find that on their website, heritage.org. back to the phones. west palm beach, florida, john is on our line for independents. john, thank you for waiting. caller: yes good morning. on the sabbath, god bless you mr. beach. the abuse that you've had to put up with these liberal social security unbelievable. the vial things that come out of

their mouths. and they always say that conservatives are the bad people, the evil people. in any event, mr. beach, i have a question. i hope i don't get cut off to actually have the answer to this. when the new deal began in 1933, do you know what the federal budget was at the time? guest: in 1933, my goodness, i suspect it was just north of 2- $3 billion. caller: you are correct, it was three, 1/$3 billion in 1965 the beginning of the great society and medicare, because the new deal as we know started social security, and '65, it rose to $133 billion. i think we spend about $3 billion a day now. and so americans can't look at the facts, just the simple facts. i mean, they see you as the heritage foundation, a conservative group, an evil group, that can't just simply look at numbers, and the numbers are not sustainable. i mean, i'm from florida. i know what a hurricane looks

like. i know what it's like to be without electricity for two weeks. just like people in louisiana. just wait until the weight of this government collapses. just wait until people are on the streets looking for water. i mean, i hate to paint this mad max scenario but if we ever don't get a grip on the growth, especially $5 trillion, and mr. obama, president obama, has not even completed his first term -- >> host: john, we're going to leave it there. william beach, are we on their way to battling it out in the thunderdome? let's hope -- guest: let's hope not! anything is possible. but i think that in peoples' mind -- remember, you've got 70 million people who would be in pretty bad shape if these programs that we've been talking about this morning were not fully funded. well, we're going to have to cut back on spending. there's no other way we can really do this.

i don't think even if taxes go up a lot on wealthy people, they won't fill the gap in our deficit which is now a trillion dollars a year, so in other countries where spending cuts have happened in the areas of shelter, housing, food, income support, there have been protests on the street. i don't think it would happen in this country, but let's just, you know -- we'll just -- we're not knocking on wood, we're knocking on a wood product here. the other thing that bothers me, and we haven't talked about this morning, is that while the index is growing, so is the percentage of people who are not paying income taxes. now, almost everyone pays taxes on their labor. this is through the social security system tax, the

payroll tax, however people know that. host: right. guest: but we're getting to a situation where nearly half of all households and almost half of all individuals who could pay income taxes end up not paying income taxes why does that bother me. i'm all in favor of not paying income taxes. i think that's great. i wish i could get out from paying income taxes but the fact that i do pay income taxes makes me a better citizen. i attend to what government is doing. when government says we're going to spend a trillion dollars, some of that i'm going to have to pay for through my payroll taxes, sure, but the payroll taxes are going for social security, medicare, programs that one day i'll participate in. but the income taxes are for the general government. so it bothers me when fewer and fewer people pay income taxes because that means more and more responsibility is shouldered by people in higher incomes. and that means they will buy lobbyists, they will buy organizations to represent them here in washington. and that just makes the situation worse. host: you mentioned that and there's been a lot written and spoken about the comments that governor romney made, and it's the point of two items in the paper this work. in the "washington post", on

the right from their op-ed section, the myths about the 47 percent and on left, the commentary in the washington examiner, the truth about the 47 percent, and i would recommend that both can be read online by our listeners and viewers. on the right, in the "washington post", it says has mitt romney recently noted 47 percent of u.s. households don't pay federal income taxes. some see this as evidence of a welfare state run amok, others think that gimmicks and loopholes let both rich and poor americans duck their taxes. so my question to you is you say that more people should be paying federal income tax, so if you were to do that, how would you -- would you raise the level of income tax or would you close some loopholes and if you're going to close loopholes, which would you close? guest: first off i think we need to have tax reform and the tax reform should raise the necessary amounts of money for government. i'm an advocate of a single

rate tax but let's just go to a two rate tax like ron wyden, democratic senator from oregon, has. he gets to a lower tax rate, and two rates, so still a progressive system, by eliminating a host of deductions and credits and limiting others. he still has the mortgage interest deduction, the charitable deduction, he has the student financial aid, education conduction, so those things seem to be important, and in my tax reform those continue as well. but we get a lot of things that are not in there, the deductions on the business side for good will advertising. some of the immediate expensing that -- or some of the delayed expensing that you get on the business side. i would get rid of that. and when we get rid of all these deductions and credits, the tax base is bigger. that means rates can be lower and people can pay taxes at

lower rates. a 10 percent tax rate is going to be tough for some people and they shouldn't pay if it's going to be too tough. but for people with incomes of 50, 60, $70,000, paying, after their deductions, after their family credits, after their personal deductions, paying $1000 in income tax brings them into the system. on the same hand, we need to have a better social security, medicare and health care system so family costs are not as low. a host of reforms, rob, we need to make. but let's focus on the tax system and let's make sure that that's fair and let's make sure we get as many people involved in that as possible. it should be a democratic deal. we have a democratic system for electing government, why should we have an eliteist system for financing it. that's the wrong of government to have. host: bill, on the republican line, you're on the washington journal.

caller: i have a comment and hopefully a fair question and i can't wait to hear what the answer might be. the people, the ladies and gentlemen listening to this could take out a dollar bill sometime today, a dollar bill is 6 inches wide. if you were to take that dollar bill and cut approximately 2 1/2 inches, a little bit more, it's really two and 5/8 inches off of that dollar bill, that's how much money we're borrowing. that's how much money that we don't have to spend. my question now for mr. beach is if we end up down the road, whether it's next week or next month, cutting off another half inch, or in this case, to be exact, 3/8 of another inch off of that dollar bill, what is going to happen to this

country? thank you for listening. guest: thank you very much. it's a grave concern. everyone who hears -- who cares about the future of the country and rate of growth of our economy needs to be concerned about the total level of public debt. maybe i should just say this, rob, so everybody can kind of get into it. the deficit is the amount each year that we have to borrow because our revenues don't keep up with our spending. so you have a deficit, when your spending is above your revenues, and the deficits have been because of the recession and because of these programs we've been talking about, broken programs. right around a trillion dollars. that's a lot of. a lot of people know lebron james. he makes $46 million a year. he would have to work 28,000 years to make his first trillion dollars. a trillion dollars is an enormous amount of money. now, every time we have a deficit, that adds to the debt. so the debt is the running

total of all the deficits, and right now the total deficit of the united states, owned by the public, owned by other agencies of the federal government, is equal to the size of the economy. when it gets that level, most economists will tell you that no country has failed to slow down. so when the size of your debt gets to be above 70 percent the size of your economy, then the economy slows. so if you're worried, if you're a democrat, you should be definitely worried because president obama is your guy, if you're republican, romney is your guy, i suppose, you should be worried about the pace of the economy and the size of the debt. so let'all worry about the future of the economy and take this debt seriously. host: back to the phones, in new york, michael on our line for democrats. thank you for waiting michael. michael, you there? all right. let's move on to fresno,

california, tony is on our line for independents, tony, you're on the "washington journal". caller: hi, this is tony. host: go ahead tony. caller: i'm in the middle of california, a great venue, of our culture out here. my question to mr. beach is that it doesn't matter what parties now or will be, republicans or democrats, you know, outsourcing has been incredibly taken over and there are no jobs out here. the shoe industry is no longer here, it's no longer in existence, the tv industry, no longer here. so my question to mr. beach is can we bring the jobs back here. i know there are --

>> host: we're going to leave it there tony. mr. beach, go ahead. guest: the answer is we can create jobs here. some jobs are gone forever. this country will never be a place where shoes will be made again. he i just don't think -- i just don't think so. i hope not because those are very low wage jobs. same with manufacturing or assembling television. things i talked about from my own personal experience. some jobs we don't haven't to come back but we have everybody who wants to work involved with a job. how does that happen? the world economy that we're now involved in is causing all these problems of outsourcing also offers opportunity. entrepreneurs in this country will look out at the world and say look, we've got americans who are trained to do the following things. maybe very well trained in electronics, assembling and working with electronics, in a high, scientific way. we'll make this particular product.

well, it takes off, turns out that that becomes a computer chip. computer chips are still made in parts of the united states. it could be some other chemical product. but what we need to have is more innovation and entrepreneurship to discover what products those are, what can we manufacture here. when that occurs, entrepreneurs, innovators, create jobs and that will bring us back to the kind of full employment we really want to have. host: our guest has been william beach of the heritage foundation, he is the director of the center for data analysis and if you want to find out more about what he's been working on, go to their website, heritage.org, and you can find everything that you're looking for. thank you for being on the program. guest: my pleasure entirely, thank you. >> tomorrow, we will talk about the presidential campaigns. our guest is bloomberg news

reporter jonathan salant, followed by look at syria and the assad regime. later, a look at the estimated $1 billion cost of last year's debt ceiling debate. we are joined by the government accountability of says gary hinkle, manager for the financial management and assurance team. "washington journal," live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> you are trying to encourage developers to think about what information they truly need to make the application functional. if they are playing a game, agio location information will track the consumer as she passes through the world the entire day.

what information is really needed to make the app functional, who else should see it, in other words, should assets be limited? how long do we need to retain it, and when your done with it, what are you going to do with it? >> one of the biggest problems is the work force. they are looking for more people to come into this industry and work on creating apps and all that goes into it. that is the biggest problem, the fears people have. that somehow washington we are going to come in and tell them how to do it or not do it and heard a growing business. the only real fear was workplace issues. >> monday at 8 eastern on c- span2. span2.